Tyler blogged about this silly list of things you're supposed to do when you're 25, written by some anonymous woman who I suspect has reached the old and grump stage of life.
Here's the thing... you don't know shit when you're 25, because you haven't made enough mistakes in life. It doesn't matter if you tell someone that age what they should do, because they're not inclined to listen. Shit, I'm 35, and generally disregard my own advice (and I give a lot of it), let alone advice from others.
I'm generally annoyed by the suggestion of "growing up" when it's defined as a series of cultural norms that you're a piece of shit for not adhering to. While some of those things may fall in the category of basic human respect, what kind of fucked up world would you live in if you couldn't ask friends for help moving or stay with friends or be expected to wear heals or a tie?
3. Do not expect friends to help you move anymore. You may ask for help; you may not expect it...
9. Learn to walk in heels. Gentlemen, you are at your leisure. Ladies: If you wear heels, know how to operate them. Clomping along and placing your foot down flat with each step gives the appearance of a ten-year-old playing dress-up...
The author doesn't condone asking friends or not wearing heels.
Why do you and my sister-in-law insist on taking this list so seriously and personally? I shared the list because of its overall point of the need for people to eventually shift gears from college to professional life.
Lighten up.
According to whom? Who says you have to do anything? "Professional life" is a myth. I learned you should grow up, learn a trade, work somewhere for 40 years and get a pension. And while you're at it, get married, make babies and buy a house. How is that working out for... anyone?
It's not a matter of needing to "lighten up," it's a matter of questioning all of the dogmatic bullshit that "people" say you're "supposed" to do.
Advice comes in two flavors. The first flavor is advice derived from experience, reflection, analysis and flexible conclusions. The second flavor is advice rooted in "that's the way it is." I'd avoid the latter like the plague.
For the record, that list (and many of the responses to it)was the thing that made me make this post.
I'm on Tyler's (and I suppose, the list's) side.
I mean, I'm was once laid back and unconventional as it gets (still relatively am for a 36 year old married dad and family man living in suburbia), I probably would have been right there with Jeff & Tyler's sis-in-law 10 years ago, but over time I've come to understand the importance and meaning in a little bit of formality in life.
It's not a bad thing...and oddly enough, I do equate it a little to growing up and understanding that it's not about conforming and what you wear really doesn't matter...even if what you need to wear is a suit and tie. It's about social norms, respect, integrity and a collective sense of formality. Sometimes "that's the way it is" because the way it is works.
I totally get Tyler's idea of 'shifting gears' in life. I feel I have two or three times since becoming of adult age. If I were the same person I was when I was 18 (half my life ago) I'd probably hate myself. Some of that change is things like those on this list.
I generally like the list.
Interestingly (and barely related), Jeff, I think you run the most formal (in the sense of there being a certain expectation of the user) enthusiast forums on the internet.
Our social contract on the sites is to communicate in a way that educated people can understand. If you choose to post in your underwear and not hold down a day job (jab!), that's still OK.
This isn't a question of conformity at all, it's a question of separating meaningful social contracts and those that are completely superficial. I know, who decides, right? You'd be surprised when you ask yourself if an accepted social norm benefits you, others or anyone, and find that it does not.
This is also not about staying the same. All people evolve, and perhaps that's partly why I take issue with the post. It makes the assumption that people in their 20's have no clue, while older people have all of the answers. You think the world is going to hell, Gonch? Join every generation before you. And yet, here we are. Believing everyone younger has it wrong is the very definition of ceased evolution.
For me, it's not about youthful rebellion or any nonsense like that. If you're doing life right, not only do you keep questioning everything, but you do it more often. Because with experience, you learn how to get your way. You realize that the value system passed down to you may have some truths, but by and large it's full of dogmatic nonsense that doesn't serve anyone.
I think it's hilarious that a list of basic tenets of civility garners such dissent simply because it was presented in "rule" formation and provided a time line.
There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in that list. Nor was it implied as an absolute source of behavioral guideline.
Don't want to wear a suit? That's cool. But don't show up to a black tie event thinking it's ok.
Don't want to work from 8 to 5? That's cool. But don't show up to a job where that expectation was outlined for you and think you are going to change it.
The point is that you can choose to do and be whoever you want to be. But you can't form your own expectation that your way of thinking should be accepted by the majority. It isn't and it won't be.
You said yourself, "you don't know shit when you're 25" and now you're arguing against that.
And what constitutes as "doing life right?"
I still think you're reading too far into a list of advice, not rules. The 8 points I singled out last night will benefit everyone. I think you're fighting social norms because they are social norms. And if that isn't the case then dispute a handful of those 8 points, except for #4.
written by some anonymous woman who I suspect has reached the old and grump stage of life.
Now, you see, that says right there that I'm damned if I say anything at all positive about that list. Not that I agree with all of it. Especially the high heels part. I've never been big on high heels. And what you do within your own space is totally up to you.
But on the whole, I do think there comes a time when people do have to "grow up" and realize it's not just all about them.
Social norms? I don't always agree with them, but there are times when one must consider whether abiding or not is the difference between being polite and considerate or obnoxious and rude to those around you. And I think that's the main point...no matter what your age.
I know people in their teens and early 20's who have "grown up" enough to realize it's not all about them and people in their 50's who still don't get it. Some people never learn from their mistakes or are so self-centered they don't care.
Respect, courtesy, and integrity. That, to me, is a better indication of being "grown up".
Those all qualify as "basic human respect," which I'm sorry, you don't need to be a certain age to understand. 5-year-olds can grasp that, probably better than people ten times their age.
And yes, you don't know shit when you're 25 (or probably 35), and as I said with that, you're not inclined to believe anyone else knows either. I'm not arguing against that, I'm arguing for the point that you have to navigate this stuff and find out how it works for you. You may "grow up" and find that Ms. Manners has it all right, and that's super. You may see that social contracts don't serve you. I suspect more people reach their mid-life crisis and realize, "Holy shit, I resent myself and 'the system' because I got here without questioning any of it."
You can lead or be led, be a product of, or form your environment. You probably end up somewhere in between. And you make a lot of mistakes on the way, but you come out better for it for arriving at your own set of rules. Perhaps that's what I'm arguing for. You're not inclined to listen to this blow hard with a blog, so why would you listen to another one?
Life right, the way I see it, is such an abstract thing to define. It's not a set of rules. It's not even measured by happiness. I think it's probably about experiencing love and pain and everything in between with an intensity that ultimately makes you happy to have the experience. You can't have that without questioning "the rules," no matter who makes them.
"I wish I could hire Carrie to make my points for me."
Me too. Well said, Carrie...and with prefect perspective.
"I think you're fighting social norms because they are social norms."
Sometimes I get that impression too, even though I'm fairly sure it's not the case.
"Our social contract on the sites is to communicate in a way that educated people can understand."
But you do realize that to the younger generation that grew up with chat shorthand and Twitter attention spans that you're exactly the old grump you claim to be against. You instituting a social norm that very well may be antiquated to the generation behind you...and, to them, serves no one. But it makes sense to you to have that formality in place.
"You realize that the value system passed down to you may have some truths, but by and large it's full of dogmatic nonsense that doesn't serve anyone."
For me it's almost the exact opposite. I wasn't handed down that dogma. I grew up in a pretty open and free-thinking environment. It wasn't until I got older and started questioning and doing things differently (including the many of the 'growing up' thing on this list - many of the very thing you call dogmatic) that I feel my life improved. I feel like I 'grew up' and got it.
The great thing about my sites and my rules is that no one has to subscribe to my way of doing things, as they're free to build their own or go elsewhere. I'm 100% OK with that.
I think part of what irked me originally was the suggestion that everyone deserves respect, which is a lot different from deserving to be treated in a polite manner. Of course, everyone should hold the door for old ladies. But the suggestion that certain social norms command respect is what I take issue with. Our culture demands respect for mostly wrong reasons, whether that be level of income, job title, the car we drive, or the clothes we wear. I've worked for and with enough douche bags that believed they deserved respect for any and all of those things, and they were some of the most clueless idiots I've ever met. It's not the social norms themselves that I'm against, it's what they imply, in this case, entitlement to respect.
Does this mean there aren't any solid people out there who are BMW-driving suits? Of course not. What I'm getting at is that the implied connection is the bullshit.
That, and I didn't think in this day and age you had to be a feminist to be offended at the suggestion that women should wear heals. What decade is this? Why not demand short skirts and push-up bras too?
The list is a great set of guidelines to follow and can be condensed to simply "Think of how you affect another before you act" The only real problem I have with it is the rather arbitrary age of 25 to begin to follow it.
Regarding the heels, the request is to be able to properly WALK in heels, if you choose to ware them, nothing more. If you have never been annoyed by someone loudly clomping around in heels, because they do not have the motor skills to walk in them, you are blessed.
Carrie; add me to the list that would welcome your skill in making a point clearly and with few words.
" 'Professional life' is a myth. I learned ......" Oooooops, I really screwed up on this one .... Hope is wasn't me that "taught" you that version of 'Professional life'. Sorry, I myself strayed a bit from the traditional definition.