Looking out for the environment spun off as a discussion from my last post, but I feel like talking more about it.
Right around 1989, when I was in high school, recycling because a pretty big push. The county I lived in (and still live in) probably knew at the time that people were lazy assholes who didn't want to sort their garbage, so they came up with a recycling plant under the radar and was among the first in the US to do so. We don't need to separate anything, and solid waste is reduced by 40%. In a world of finite resources, that's pretty cool.
I remember in my teenage naivety wondering why people were against anything labeled as an environmental cause. Whether or not the planet was in danger of anything, why would you be OK with junking up the place? Of course the people against any environmental cause are influenced by money and/or politicians that benefit from adhering to the status quo, and what a shame that is because there is so much freakin' opportunity out there.
There are some examples of that over the last decade that did pan out pretty quickly. Who buys paper anymore that isn't recycled? Even the McDonald's bag you buy is recycled (if only the crap it carries were good for you!). Glass and aluminum is mostly recycled as well. Great new industries have popped up around those, and they're finally profitable businesses after years of being on shaky ground.
GE, BP and Toyota are great examples of huge companies that not only get it, but what they work on in the background puts them ahead of future competitors. Whether it's wind turbines, alternate fuels or hybrid cars, they've invested in the future, and they're the companies looking at long-term viability, for themselves and their world. The Toyota story is my favorite, because now that other auto makers see the potential for hybrids (now that gas is $3 a gallon), Ford and Nissan, who have been sitting on their hands, are licensing the Toyota tech.
Environmentalists can be nutty, and I don't deny that. The only reason I can cut them a little bit of slack is because they act out of some sense of moral obligation, not a sense of making a buck. But again, that's what I love about those companies, that they've found a way to do both. As industry and culture evolve, there's this obvious opportunity here. Why not embrace it?
This kind of thinking, the part about dismissing a potential situation and guarding the known way of doing things, is totally irrational. It's the kind of stink that holds us back, especially in this country. Shit, we don't lead at anything anymore because we want to protect ourselves and our way instead of adapting to what the world at large needs and wants. Record companies and Hollywood try to sue their way into protecting things instead of seeing the new world. American auto makers just push out the same crap every year. Universities sell old curricula with recreation centers. When will we get it?
Being a tree hugger doesn't inconvenience me at all. With technology coming full circle and becoming the savior of the environment, instead of its biggest problem, there is enormous potential for new business. Thank God that a few companies get that. The challenge is economy of scale, and when we get there, there will be new winners in the business world. Sure, there will be casualties in the short term (look at recyclers around 1990), but we'll get there.
When I saw your subject, the first thing that came to mind is my green pool and the algae I've been fighting for a week.
Environmental issues go back to the 1960's. All those "hippies" who began calling for changes. I believe it was in the early 70's when the commercial first aired of the native american standing by a roadside as someone threw trash out of a passing car that landed at his feet and a single tear fell down his cheek.
The first Earth Day was in the spring of 1970 and I took part in a huge effort involving 6 communities to cleanup the branch of the Rouge River that runs through Edward Hines Parkway. In fact, I particpated in that event every year for the next four.
I learned recycling at 15 (1969) when my uncle introduced me to it. He'd collect metals (tin, copper) and newspapers to take to the local recycling area. Back then, they'd pay for these items by the pound. I began collecting newpapers from the neighborhood, tying them in bundles and stacking them in the garage. Once I had a full wall of 8 ft high stacks, my uncle would come over with his truck and take me to the recycling center. That's how I saved money for my annual trips to Cedar Point!
Our township has had recycling since the late 80's, and hazardous waste days once every few months. Michigan has had, for as long as I can remember, deposits on soda pop cans and bottles. Our state is even now using a mixture of blacktop and recycled tires for many of the roadways. Have you seen the new rubber mulch made from recycled tires?
Our township also has had compost recycling for years. All vegetation can be placed in either the brown paper bags or a trash can marked as "compost" to be picked up on trash day and sent to the recycling center. As residents, we can head to the center to get compost for gardens. (Actually, I use my vacuum/blower to shred my leaves in the fall and cover my flowerbeds with the leaf mulch each year).
Although I don't agree with some of the extreme tactics used by some environmental groups (I'm far from a tree hugger and I intensely dislike PETA), I do agree we've come a long way since the environment first became an issue in the late 60's . Windmill turbines, solar power, the planting of trees each Arbor Day, the reduction of clear cutting in our forests, saving large parcels of land to protect endangered species, alternative fuels and recycling...but we still have a long way to go.
Please do not let some of the flakey groups scare you away from terms like "tree hugger." It annoys me that terms like "environmentalist" and "tree hugger" are stolen by idiots and given a negative connotation.
The problem with PETA is that they are all emotion and no science. They are not tree huggers because many of them fail to understand basic underlying principles of ecology.
Back to recycling. I'm from NJ and recyling (and composting yard waste) has been the LAW from as far back as I can remember (I'm 31). Imagine my shock when I moved to Ohio and recycling is done by only a minority few? Truly shocking. I still can't believe it when I see people's garbage cans overflowing every week. I don't think I would fill up an entire can in a month!
Yup :)
The research is still up in the air about whether ethanol really makes any difference. In many cases, it takes more energy to produce than what you get out of it.
True, but what kind of energy are we talking to Produce E-90? If it takes fossil fuel and creates pollution, then its one thing, but I was making more of a 'friendly to the environment' point and not a cost/efficiency point ;).
I know that right now, esp. E-90 is running $6-7 a gallon, if you can find it, but it is a completely renewable and clean resource. Oh, and it'll get you drunk, so that's an added bonus, right Jeff? ;-).
I say we all just buy diesel engins and run them off of Cooking Oil :-D.
Jeff,
You're being fed crap by the metric tonne from Toyota and swallowing every last drop. Hybrid cars use much more energy to produce than they save.
Hybrids save gasoline, but still burn gasoline. Canceling it's "environmentally sound" argument out. You can argue all day long that it takes more energy to produce Ethanol, yet if more Americans used it, the benefits for the environment would outweigh the energy it takes to produce. Look at Brazil..
While other companies are starting to manufacture and market Hybrids, they are putting their faith in a much more powerful and efficient system known as a two mode hybrid.
However, Hybrids only benefit the environment if used in the proper applications. Personal vehicles are not one of them. Mass transit however is.
In 2007 at the NAIAS, BMW partnered with General Motors and DCX will release a two mode hybrid system along side a working Hydrogen vehicle that will be manufactured and sold not in select markets, but throughout the United States.
Toyota is two faced. They rally in California to get rid of tough emmission standards and stand behind a vehicle that benefits the driver, not the world. They care about your money, not you as a person or the world and it current environmental state.
How about some hard facts other than "Hybrid card use more energy to produce, but it's not the same kind of energy, and certainly not oil. You're the one being fed crap."
So by your idea of what it takes to make a Hybrid, there is some sort of magical method of transportation that moves the finished product, makes the parts and gets the people to work that build them that does not need oil. The machines use some special kind of lubricant? Maybe vegetable oil?
Hmmm... I had no idea, after being in the auto industry for the last 5 years, you think I might of heard of these wonderful machines.
Quit drinking Toyota's kool-aid. It's like people in this country turned off their brain while Toyota feeds them crap about quality and being "green."
Ask Toyota about the record they just set regarding recalls for the year, and we are barely out of the halfway mark for the fidcal year. Ask them about the time and money they are spending to change California emmission laws.
Infact, show me what you truly know about Toyota and their environmental programs they use in their company.
You can't. Because they don't. Meanwhile, GM leads the auto industry in using landfill gas at more than 9 plants in the U.S. while Hyundai and Nissan follow close behind.
Research a bit more before singing the praises of a company that is hardly green. It's sickening to think people swallow this crap.
There are so many underlying factors as to why my statement is correct. However, one answer that is under the noses of every person is in regard to the number of hybrids on the road today.
More than half of the driving population would have to drive one to truly make an impact on the environment. Since this is not the case, the manufacturing process still uses more energy than is currently being saved at this point. It's the same with an ethanol blend.
When a traditional drive train is made, you need two major components, an engine and a transmission. To make a Hybrid drive train, you are doubling the amount of components used to make the car go. A power source and an electric motor are added to a traditional drivetrain.
When you produce the vehicle, you are effectively increasing the manufactuing process by one-third over a standard combustion engine. This means you have added extra shipping of materials, extra machines used to produce, and transportation of extra workers. All which involves oil in some way. Therefor increasing the amount of oil needed to produce a vehicle that still runs on the very thing it is trying to save.
At only 45 estimated miles per gallon for a car (prius), and 30 for an SUV (Saturn Vue). You would have better results both environmentally and economically using Diesel and Bio Diesel, not to mention better mileage (65 Estimated).
Not enough people buy them and sales are currently declining among all Hybrid brands. If used in mass transportation in almost every major city, this sytem would make a better impact then for personal use.
I'm not debating that there are more components to build these cars... but you aren't quantifying the difference in real numbers, you're speculating. Toyota's expertise at supply chain and manufacturing is one of the reasons they make a better car for the same or less money.
For the amount I drive, a Prius at 45 mpg (one of my friends does 52 regularly, but we'll shoot low) will save me about 1,250 gallons of gas in five years. Now do you mean to tell me that 1,250 gallons of gas... 1,250 gallons more, were used in the production of a Prius than were used in the production of my Corolla? That's not even in the realm of being logical.
And please... attribute the "declining sales" to something real. Toyota is just now catching up with demand!
At issue isn't alternate fuels either, which themselves have other issues that have all kinds of ethical questions (like whether you should be burning food when people are starving). Don't take the debate on a tangent... back up your statements with quantifiable facts.
Of course there is the issue of a developing markets and the place on the curve where the benefits start to really take off. Honestly, that qualifies for the "no shit" category. But you still have to start somewhere, otherwise we'd still live in caves and eat dinosaur shit.
"I'm not debating that there are more components to build these cars... but you aren't quantifying the difference in real numbers, you're speculating."
You're the one speculating, when you work in the Auto Industry and see first hand what goes on, you can claim that someone is speculating. Until then, you are the one who is clearly speculating.
I will admit I cannot produce numbers, but one of the companies I work for, who purchased their hybrid software for their own hybrid model from Toyota are finding that they are using more resources to produce, than is being saved based on the number being sold. The same goes for Toyota, where Hybrids make up less than 5% of all their sales. To truly make an impact, Hybrids need to be used in a Mass transit market and not for personal use.
oooooh, 52 MPG? Check this out.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/bobert9/Picture25.jpg
This is in my Chevy Cobalt. a standard 4 cyl. combustion engine in a sub 3,000 lb car. Pretty sad that a Hybrid vehicle only gets 12 more MPG. By your standards, I'm doing some good for the environment because I am saving gas and not using a bigger engine.
So, you saving 1,250 gallons in 5 years is just one of 190,625,023 (2000 census http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/onh2p4.htm )licensed drivers in the U.S. How does that even make a dent on the environment? Really, I would like an answer. Considering less than 1,000,000 Hybrids have been sold in the world. Also, consider those savings while you make payments on that Hybrid, because those savings will allow you to make the payment on your vehicle. Which are usually $1-2K over a regular combustion engine.
Where are your numbers to prove I am wrong? It seems you are doing your own speculation, while you may save 1,250 gallons of gas think of the guy driving a Highlander or Tahoe, using twice that amount a year. It cancels it out therefor making the Hybrid's claim to "green" obsolete.
"And please... attribute the "declining sales" to something real. Toyota is just now catching up with demand!"
Unfortunatly this is not the case, almost 500 fewer Hybrids were sold in June than May. (Source: http://www.hybridcars.com ) June is a hot month for car sales and the only time other than when the new fall line-ups come out that car companies rely on sales. This is due to heavy saturation of sales and clearances to make way for new models.
America is starting to realise that Hybrids are simply a matter of image and personal economics. They only do some good for the person behind the wheel, and not the environment. See how Toyota is begining to consider making an Ethanol capable vehicle, due to the fact that a Hybrid uses plain gasoline.
A very credible internet auto rag finds:
http://www.autoextremist.com/researc....shtml#Alt2006
"Toyota's expertise at supply chain and manufacturing is one of the reasons they make a better car for the same or less money."
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060716/BUSINESS02/607160639/1015/BUSINESS
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/13/toyota-u-s-recall-extravaganza/
So all these recalls certainly show their "expertise" in manufacturing, huh? How about less speculation and more facts. Better yet, how about less shirking the issue from Toyota and more product with the quality they claim to have.
Back up your statements, you are the one claiming that Toyota is green. How is this possible? Again I will reiterate my point that Toyota is fighting emmission laws, has had to lower their Hybrid estimated mileage, and is building a huge truck plant (bigger than GM's) to build the new Tundra in Texas.
Not to mention they cannot win a race without cheating: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_action=&fes_art_id=27387&fes_page=3
This just in.
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?Feed=AP&Date=20060718&ID=5873092
How does that make a dent in the environment? See, that's your problem... you think that anything not at a grand scale is pointless. So everyone thinks like you and nothing ever gets done. My vote doesn't count. Tossing this cigarette butt out the window won't matter if everyone else does it. Eating this one more plate of cheese fries won't kill me.
It's a maturing market. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It has to start somewhere. Maybe it'll take off in the long run, maybe it won't. You're still distracting from your original point, that there's nothing green about a hybrid, and you fail to back that up. Hybrids use less gas, and that's a fact. Unless you can prove to me your silly theory that they use 1,250 gallons more gas to produce, then a hybrid does have an impact on reducing emissions.
If your employer thought they were going to make money on hybrids, they're clueless. Let's face it, it's real-time R&D, and the ROI won't happen this year or the next. I doubt Toyota has recouped their costs either. That's the way technology works. However, get to market first, make your product valuable, and you lead the market when it matures. That's what Toyota is doing, and that's why they're making money.
Supply chain and manufacturing efficiency has nothing to do with the fact that they can't get the next Corolla out in time. Not having the capacity to meet demand means you're selling like crazy. That's a good problem to have, provided you don't lose market share in the process.
Now, since you don't really know me, I am left wondering how you make all these assumptions about me. What makes you think that I only see things on a grand scale having an impact? I'm the guy that would rather have his car smell like a half smoked camel than throw my butts out the window.
I will also reiterate my point that Hydrogen is being worked on and was being worked on long before Hybrids. So your theory that nothing gets done if we dont't start somewhere holds no merit in this case.
A Hybrid car is no more green than my Cobalt. As was proven with the mileage I get in mine which uses a standard combustion engine.
The day they make an Ethanol Hybrid with cylinder shut-off mode is the day a Hybrid becomes green. A diesel that gets 65 mpg is much more green than any Hybrid.
I'm sorry, but this nonsense about distracting away from an argument is a little silly. By looking for flaws in the argument, you are contradicting yourself when you should be looking for flaws in the presented facts.
The Hybrid market is declining. I even provided you with a source from one far out left, liberal website (hybridcars.com) that glorifies owning a Hybrid. But you're so blind in your Toyota way thinking. I brought all this up because you are calling Toyota a green company.
Are you saying Toyota made it to the market first with a Hybrid? If you are, all you are showing me is that you are flying by the seat of your pants with this debate and making things up.
"Supply chain and manufacturing efficiency has nothing to do with the fact that they can't get the next Corolla out in time. "
Way to ignore the article I provided underneath about recalls. Way to ignore what Eric posted underneath my post regarding the Prius, which uses Toyota's "expertise".
If you even had a clue about the auto industry, delaying a vehicle for any reason, especially the aging Corolla (which is market share Toyota cannot afford to lose at this point) is not a good thing. For every month that GM delayed the G6 Vert, they lost 2.3 million dollars (all regained when they sold out of them in the second quarter) For every month Toyota delays the Corolla, they lose buyers to Honda or Chevrolet. It is never a good thing to lose a customer.
Your business seems to be computers, and judging by all the speculation you have done regarding this issue, I suggest you stick to it.
But you are distracting the argument... Hydrogen, nuclear power, economies of scale, etc., all have nothing to do with how efficient a car is! You further dilute your "argument" by going on and on about what I allegedly don't have a clue about. Name calling is a good sign that you don't have a point to make.
Does a hybrid car use less gas than its non-hybrid counterpart? Yes. That's not speculation, it's fact.
I did not call you name. I told you should stick with computers and not trying to get into debates about the auto industry. Also, you can say the same for your argument by dilluting it when you said "See, that's your problem... you think.." and "but you aren't quantifying the difference in real numbers, you're SPECULATING." I've provided sources, and you cannot even get one fact straight.
Also, you are again wrong. Where do you get these facts from? Wherever it is, they are making your argument look silly and misinformed.
For example, diesel (gas, combustion) gets 65 mpg or better than hybrids. Even the Yaris & from Toyota gets 40.0 Mpg estimated and I have heard of people getting upwards of 50 on the highway. thats a difference of 5 mpg!!! Does that warrant spending around $2k more on car for an electric motor, when you can have diesel and even bio diesel for much cheaper? Bio diesel is also much cleaner than any Hybrid.
Again, opinion does not count as fact. Hybrids are no better than a combustion engine of no more than 4 cylinders. Even some V6 engines get better mileage than a Hybrid.
So where are the facts?
You choose to see whatever you want to see, dude. A hybrid Highlander gets better gas mileage than the non-hybrid, does it not? 22 vs. 33 mpg city? What more is it that you're looking for?
Which production diesel cars are getting 65 mpg? Yeah, the Yaris gets 34 mpg city, not 40. 39 highway, sure, but no one gets the EPA estimates, which is why I never said the Prius is doing 60 in practice.
"but no one gets the EPA estimates"
I get 6 more in my car than I am supposed to, see the photo I posted.
You even said your friend gets 52 in his Hybrid. Which is 7 more than the EPA.
So which is it? Do people get the EPA estimate or not? You're contradicting yourself. The Highlander does not get 22 and the yaris is rated at 40. Please get your facts straight.
I'll continue to belive what is true. Not some spoon fed marketing technique.
No, the Prius gets 60 city EPA.
My facts are perfectly straight. I copied them right off Edmunds.com.
Way to show me that 65 mpg diesel. Way to respond to my hybrid vs. non-hybrid Highlander.
http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Toyota_To_Expand_Hybrid_Car_Range_In_US_999.html
"Toyota has sold more hybrid vehicles in the US so far this year than Cadillac, Buick, or Mercedes Benz has sold cars."
I cannot even begin to mention whats wrong with that quote. Cadillac, Buick and Benz have all been around since before Toyota was even in the begining stages of becoming a company. So to say they have sold more Hybrids then any of those companies have sold cars is the most ridiculous statment I have ever heard, EVER.
Now if they meant this year, well then apples to oranges anyone? Comparing a Prius to $29K - $100K LUXURY Automobiles? You are digging my friend. Like I said, if you knew anything aboutthe automobile industry, you would know that Luxury vehicles have the lowest sales in the market after full size vans. Toyota has to spin it somehow, right?
Let me tell you about why Toyota is suddenly coming out with all these press releases about Hybrid cars. During the last 2 months Toyota has started to issue more and more recalls. Now, a company like Toyota who has this picture perfect image of quality cannot have this. As was proven when they got caught sweeping their recalls under the rug. So to qualm the media which has finally started to catch up to Toyota and all the shady shit they do, they come out with this big to do about Hybrids.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060719/AUTO01/607190391/1148
Spin Spin Spin.....
Included in that article is Toyota's goal to begin producing ethanol capable vehicles... I wonder why.
Because Hybrid sales are falling flat?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12467379/
Total Hybrid sales, June 06:
May and June:
23,554 23,048
Hybridcars.com
Because it's hard to recoup costs?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050616.wxwhinside16/BNStory/specialMegawheels/
Because Honda is reducing the amount of Hybrids produced?
---------------------------------------------------------
Honda: Too Many Accord Hybrids, Not Enough Fits
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Jun 16, 2006 10:23 AM
http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/ar/honda_accord_fit/
SAN FRANCISCO – Honda Motor Co. Ltd. is facing a shortage of its hot-selling Fit small car in North America while halving production of its Accord Hybrid sedan as sales slump.
The subcompact Fit 5-door has been on sale in the U.S. since April 20, and in the first 45 days of availability some 9,900 units have been sold. That rate exceeds the auto maker’s 38,000- to 42,000-unit annual target.
-----------------------------------------------
Keep this fact in mind:
hybrid buses produce much lower hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions than conventional diesel-powered buses. In addition, they are much more fuel-efficient than traditional buses. In fact, if America's nine largest cities replaced their transit fleets — totaling 13,000 buses — with hybrid buses, the cities would save 40 million gallons of fuel each year — a greater savings than 500,000 small hybrid vehicles would produce. The hybrid buses are quieter and more efficient -- and even accelerate 50% more quickly -- than regular buses. Clearly a winning combination.
GMblogs.
GM has more cars that get over 30mpg than ANY other car company. Overall, GM’s North American facilities have reduced non–recycled waste by 67 percent since 1997. Today, in North America, GM recycles nearly 88 percent of the waste it generates and their quality this year has proven to be beyond Toyotas. And you want to continue to call Toyota a green company?
This has been real fun, really. But it just got out of control when you posted that quote. I guess you really cannot educate the uneducated and I am really sorry you will continue to swallow Toyota's big hybrid hype recall coverup. I heard of a guy over at the NY times, his name is Thomas Friedman. You guys would get a long well what with the ridiculous quotes and all.
Thanks for the heads up though, I'm gonna pass this quote around the office. We could use a good laugh, we have been real real busy getting ready our hydrogen vehicle for production. Look for it at the 2007 NAIAS in Detroit.
Remember, Toyota Moving foreward, and only foreward, because the steering broke.
These also just in:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/07/18/fuel_eco_trends.reut/index.html
"Hybrids don't make a dent as fuel efficiency increases but is offset by weight and power."
And Buick sold more cars in China so far this year the Toyota has sold this year. That quote is very inacurate.
What does any of that have to do with whether or not hybrids get better gas mileage? I don't even know what your point is anymore. If it's to say that Toyota suX0rz teh big one, then maybe you can explain why they sell more cars than everyone else, until next year when they're on top.
And you still didn't show me the production 65mpg diesel cars, or respond to the Highlander point. How many ADD kids does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Let's ride bikes!
Oh, and the local dealerships tell me they can put me on a waiting list for a Prius, two to five months. And I'd have to pay sticker. But hey, there's no demand, right?
Dude...
Where are you getting this?
"If it's to say that Toyota suX0rz teh big one, then maybe you can explain why they sell more cars than everyone else, until next year when they're on top."
First of all I would never type and of that leet speak shit, thats for dorks in their parents basement.
For the month of June:
--------------------------June
--------------------------2006
BMW-------------------27,763
DCX------------------206,773
Ford ------------------267,862
GM--------------------407,513
Honda----------------126,449
Hyundai/KIA----------71,951
Isuzu-----------------745
Mazda-----------------23,727
Mitsubishi------------10,004
Nissan-----------------75,154
Porsche-----------------2,871
Subaru----------------18,476
Suzuki-------------------9,516
Toyota---------------223,018
VW---------------------28,430
Other (estimate) -------585
TOTAL------------1,500,837
The only thing good you can say about Toyotas numbers in June is that they are up 14.4% from last year.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33647&highlight=sales+june+2006
Look, this is gettin a little too stupid.
65 mpg diesels can be obtained from modifications to a regular diesel.
I don't agree with hybrids of any sort. It's very hard for me to justify replacing a broken part with another broken part. Hybrids burn gasoline. They have an exhaust pipe on the back.
The day they fuse Hybrid with either an Ethanol blend or clean and bio-diesel is the day a Hybrid will truly make a difference. Or the other option is to put it into mass transit. Neither of which is happening at any car company.
Ethanol is the same way, either mass market it or it does not work. 4 states have finally assured at least 20 per state. The most recent being Pennsylvania.
GM has made more strides than Toyota in environmental concerns. The ev-1, why did GM pull the plug? Because America did not buy it. Now that they don't offer it anymore, the world is blaming them. Meanwhile, Toyota is building a huge truck plant to sell a vehicle that gets mpg and is the size of a small building. The Tundra, but they shove this Hybrid utopia in everyones face while they turn around and build landcruisers that get 17 mpg highway. The Chevy Tahoe (another vehicle in it's class) gets 22mpg. Nothing to write home about, but for a vehicle that big, thats amazing and it's Flex Fuel capable.
Ford has a hybrid SUV with the best MPG in it's class. No one says a thing.
Hyundai had higher quality marks last year, and toyota has the worst YTD, but everyone licks toyotas nuts clean over a hybrid that does not perform to EPA specs.
GM sold twice as many cars last month with little to no incentive programs or offers. Toyota was discounting their largest SUV and still managed to sell half as many vehicles as GM.
The head honcho even stepped down this year because he treats women like shit.
It's all there, look it up.
And still... none of that has anything to do with whether or not hybrids are more efficient, or that Toyota is still the #2 manufacturer, and a stones throw away from #1.
And still no response to my points. Why in God's name would I want to "look it up" if it has nothing to do with my original point?
More indication that Toyota far from has its head up its ass...
"Press, who recently became the first non-Japanese president of Toyota's U.S. unit, said its hybrid technology has long-term staying power because it can adapt to several alternatives, such as clean diesels, biodiesels, ethanol, plug-in hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells."
See, the actual fuel is only a part of the total equation on getting these things to go as far as possible on as little as possible fuel.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/23/business/plugin.php
GM already has one. Toyota's is still years away.
Toyota is also third. Not 2nd.
I also never argued they are not more efficient, I said they are not any more green.. They burn gasoline. Are you retarded? Can you not figure out that Gasoline is still burned in a hybrid?
Throughout this whole thing. you made the following points:
"Hybrid card use more energy to produce,"
You admitted to my original point.
"Toyota's expertise at supply chain and manufacturing is one of the reasons they make a better car for the same or less money."
They have more recalls than anyone.
"then maybe you can explain why they sell more cars than everyone else, until next year when they're on top."
They are third, and not even close to taking over 1st.
Unless you're severly brain damaged, you can see that YOU are the ones that brought up these points, and when I respond to them with factual answers and not some crazy ass made up bull shit like TOYOTA MAKES A HYBRID. THEY ARE AWESOME.. you ask what that has to do with the original point...
????
???????
Did I miss something? Did you not bring up those points? Am I supposed to do things the toyota way here? Ignore the bull shit and look at only the good things?
You are clearly ignoring the fact their quality has sinked from number 1, they produce less vehicles that get 30 mpg than they did 30 years ago, and they have yet to tell anyone the truth about their recalls.
You are the most ignorant person I have ever met when it comes to the subject of Toyota. You are not ingorant because you like them, but you are ingorant because you brought up all these bull shit made up facts, and then when I show you the truth, you spin it.
Have fun in your broken Prius while the rest of the world is driving Hydrogen and alternative fuel vehicles.
"Watanabe also bowed in apology at the news conference to express regrets - but not acknowledging wrongdoing - for causing troubles due to a criminal investigation linked to a recall case in 2004."
http://my.earthlink.net/article/bus?guid=20060720/44beffc0_3ca6_1552620060720944678847
Why would Toyota be concerned about GM if they are confident that they will over take GM?
Yes, I'm retarded. Nice comeback. You're such a grown up.
So using less gas isn't more green. Yep... I'm the retarded one. Clearly. All of your name calling doesn't make for any kind of debate.
Yeah, I admitted that hybrids take more energy to produce... but not so much more that it negates the energy savings, or more specifically, the oil savings, in the car's lifetime of operation.
You're trying to drag me into a debate about alternate fuels and other shit that has nothing to do with whether or not a hybrid is more efficient than its all-gas brethren, with name calling in between.
You're also hell-bent on trying to discredit Toyota for all of the ass-kickery they're doing, for reasons I don't quite understand. Clearly the open market disagrees with everything you have to say about Toyota. Heck, even the Detroit Free Press gets that Toyota has succeeded where the big three fail time and time again. I'm not imagining that. I'm not imagining that my wife's '98 Corolla has never had anything beyond tire, brake and belt replacement after 150,000 miles.
And Google it... Toyota passed up Ford in early 2004 in auto sales, and GM is next. I mean, just today, "Ford, the world's third largest auto maker...". See what all of that name calling gets you?
Is Toyota all tree-hugging? Well of course not, not if they expect to sell cars to the asinine American obsession with giant vehicles. But they had the balls to do the R&D and market hybrids, and no one else did. That's why Ford is licensing it from Toyota instead of vice versa.
And the "fact" about Toyota delivering fewer sub 30 mpg models than 30 years ago is nonsense if you believe today's news. Even if it were true, it'd be a silly statement outside the context of a comparison with other manufacturers.
As for recalls, what is it that they're not sharing? You've got one with a floor mat clip that comes loose, with seven complaints, two accidents with no injuries, out of 367,500 vehicles. Another one requires them to remove a safety feature of the Tundra because the feds are morons. The 33,000 Prius, Echo and Yarus recall because of an engine oil leak problem is a preventative recall with no known instances of the defect causing a problem.
Yeah, it sucks that they have these recalls, but none of them scream show stopper, like the one where 3.8 million Ford SUV's were recalled because some were bursting into flames in people's garages. And oh look, it just happened again.
So keep hating... it won't get you anywhere. I still like Toyota.
"Heck, even the Detroit Free Press gets that Toyota has succeeded where the big three fail time and time again."
Is that the same Detroit Free press who's most recent article noted Toyotas defects? Nice article from April.
"
Toyota passed up Ford in early 2004 in auto sales, and GM is next. I mean, just today, "Ford, the world's third largest auto maker..."."
2004 is not 2006.
I already posted the numbers for this year, Toyota ranks third in vehicle sales YTD. Ford has them beat, again. Lets see what happens when the numbers roll in for July. I bet you will try and spin the fact that Toyota is so far having their worst month in 4 years.
"And the "fact" about Toyota delivering fewer sub 30 mpg models than 30 years ago is nonsense if you believe today's news. Even if it were true, it'd be a silly statement outside the context of a comparison with other manufacturers."
GM still offers more vehicles than Toyota that get over 30 mpg.
And your little recall link and facts. Recalls are recalls. You cannot spin that. What about the steering breaking in the FJ cruiser? STEERING, the thing you control the car with. Of course, you don't know. You're an oberserver. Your credibility is pretty much crap.
You can sit here and denounce my argument because I said you might be retarded. You contradict yourself, speculated more than anyone I have ever met, and spin stories about Toyota. To me it looks like I was not far off.
Toyota claimed they would have the largest market share at the beginning of the fiscal year. They are now eating their own words.
And when did it become asinine for America to want large vehicles? I'm sorry, I thought this was the land of the free, for people to choose what they want. People are going to buy Camaro's and Mustangs and Challengers. it's what they want. Don't like it, too bad... The world does not revolve around you as much as you like to think so.
Like I said.. Toyota is in a tailspin, they were reprimanded by the japanese government, they are failing in China and they growing too big here in the U.S. which is leading to more recalls. They are worried about GM and they admitted it when they stuck their nose in the Nissan Renault GM deal.
Sit back and watch.
Reposted because you did not get it the first time. With number placement also, you seem to have trouble with numbers.
--------------------------June
--------------------------2006
BMW-------------------27,763
DCX------------------206,773 <----- FOURTH
Ford ------------------267,862<---- SECOND
GM--------------------407,513<----FIRST
Honda----------------126,449
Hyundai/KIA----------71,951
Isuzu-----------------745
Mazda-----------------23,727
Mitsubishi------------10,004
Nissan-----------------75,154
Porsche-----------------2,871
Subaru----------------18,476
Suzuki-------------------9,516
Toyota---------------223,018<----THIRD! DUUURRR
VW---------------------28,430
Other (estimate) -------585
TOTAL------------1,500,837
Toyota also releases new model years on a different schedule, so the numbers have no context. The trend you point out is the same every year. Yawn.
"And when did it become asinine for America to want large vehicles? I'm sorry, I thought this was the land of the free, for people to choose what they want."
Yes, that's precisely the problem with people in this country. People do whatever they want, and don't give two shits about how it affects other people and their environment. Then they bitch about gas prices. No one thinks anymore about anyone but themselves and how they can feel today. I fear for our children.
Looks like Toyota fell below the industry average.
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 20 July 2006 — Customer satisfaction with the overall experience within the dealership can considerably impact a dealer’s revenue gain per customer, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2006 Customer Service Index (CSI) StudySM released today.
The study, now in its 26th year, measures the customer satisfaction of vehicle owners who visit the dealer service department for maintenance or repair work during the first three years of ownership, which typically represents the majority of the vehicle warranty period. Overall customer satisfaction with dealer service is based on six measures: service initiation, service advisor, in-dealership experience, service delivery, service quality and user-friendly service.
Lexus 912
Buick 911
Cadillac 909
Jaguar 908
Lincoln 906
Mercury 905
Saturn 904
Pontiac 903
Audi 890
MINI 890
Volvo 890
Acura 889
Chevrolet 887
Infiniti 887
Porsche 887
BMW 884
Honda 883
HUMMER 882
Saab 880
GMC 879
Industry Average 873 <----------->
Mercedes-Benz 872
Hyundai 869
Chrysler 867
Ford 866
Dodge 862
Toyota 861
Subaru 858
Jeep 851
Nissan 849
Mitsubishi 848
Kia 843
Mazda 843
Land Rover 840
Suzuki 823
Volkswagen 810
Isuzu 781
More at http://www.jdpower.com/studies_jdpow...p?StudyID=1150
I don't know what the arbitrary numbers mean, but is 12 points behind an average of 873 bad? And you do know that Lexus is Toyota right? And that it's hard to credit or discredit the manufacturer for the actions of dealerships they don't own?
And this has what to do with efficient cars?
"Toyota also releases new model years on a different schedule,"
Thats B.S.
All Toyota delaerships must follow a strict code set by Toyota. 12 points below the average is bad when Toyota used to be on top, ahead of their own lexus brand even.
And this has to do with Toyota, not efficient cars. It stopped being about that when you made point that had nothing to do with efficient cars.
I had to wait until the prototype we were wroking on was officially released to the public to show you proof.
Under 20k, and a larger official mileage than I originally posted.
have a goodin.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34786
Fuel Miser: Diesel Volkswagen Polo Blue Motion Hits 72 MPG
Date posted: 07-28-2006
WOLFSBURG, Germany — Volkswagen is banking on spiraling fuel prices to help jump-start sales of its latest model, the Polo Blue Motion.
First revealed at the Geneva Motor Show back in February, Wolfsburg's new fuel-sipper has just gone on sale in Germany. It promises -beating fuel economy at the low price of $19,990.
Volkswagen is no stranger to the fuel miser ranks. Its Lupo 3L, the advanced 94-mpg city car masterminded by former chairman Ferdinand Piëch, proved just what is capable if a carmaker is prepared to forgo profits. Unfortunately, the disappointing sales figures — only 28,000 units were sold in six years — meant the mileage champ was ultimately dropped from the German carmaker's lineup.
It left a hole that Volkswagen hopes to fill with the Polo Blue Motion. The three-door hatchback is based on the popular front-wheel-drive Polo 1.4 TDI, making the same 80 horsepower from its 1.4-liter 3-cylinder turbodiesel. But with a reworked 5-speed gearbox, an optimized aerodynamic package and 14-inch low-rolling-resistance tires, the Polo Blue Motion returns a highly impressive 72.4 mpg on the combined European consumption cycle. That's a 10-mpg improvement over its standard sibling, made even more impressive by the car's 717-mile range.
Performance is moderate, befitting the new car's intended role: zero to 62 mph in 12.8 seconds and a top speed of 176 mph. In response to criticism of the Lupo 3L's on-road properties, Volkswagen claims to have developed the Polo Blue Motion to provide a level of ride and handling more in keeping with its standard production models — which is one reason why it does without the annoying stop/start function used by its predecessor to reduce consumption around town.
What this means to you: Hybrids may be in the limelight right now, but conventional diesels still hold the upper hand when the right measures are applied.
The same people that buy the equally slow Prius?
Seriously, have you driven one? They barely get out of their own way.
It does have a top speed of 176 mph.. That is base 400hp Corvette territory.
Not really...
Quality over Quanity my friend. Notice how Toyota gets bigger and the quality starts to lack.
Remember GM had twice as many sales as Toyota at the half way mark. Toyota stupidly predicted that they would outsell GM by the end of the year.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4442/picture2uj8.png
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4888&d=1154142789
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4889&d=1154142833
By the way GM sold out of the model year 07 Sky, Solstice and g6 vert again today. They all went into production 2 weeks ago.
Quality? Ha! You don't have that either...
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082
Face it dude, the American auto industry is shit. If you and the idiots you worked for would realize that and fucking do something about it, they wouldn't be on a downward slide. GM is down 19.5% from last year. Which part of that is good?
Then explain why the Sky, Solstice, G6 Covertible and Corvette are sold out. Gone.... We cannot keep people out of our showrooms at Saturn for the Aura and Hybrid Vue and the Chevy Tahoe is selling above MSRP. Meanwhile, Toyota recalls half (HALF) their vehicles sold because of defects and safety issues. Sales are up again...
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060804/AUTO01/608040375/1121/AUTO
But this is about being Green, while Toyota may be green because of their perception. GM does what they say.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35155&highlight=delta+plant
The ONLY auto plant in the world to be LEED certified.
Face it dude, you have been had by Toyota. I hope they at least buy you dinner after bending you over the way they have.
You're going to be a sad little man come January and the yearly figures are announced.
By the way, effective nov 1st 2006. GM will offer more of your precious hybrid vehicles then any other car company. Including Toyota.
Whatever. Who cares if they sold out? They sold 19.5% fewer cars!
I haven't been "had" by anyone. I like all of the Toyotas I've owned, and if I stop liking them, I'll stop buying them. For the time being, they're succeeding in nearly every way where GM and Ford are stumbling.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it."
-Upton Sinclair
You failed to read did you not?
Do you even know who pays my salary?
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, GM, Ford and DCX. Thats who.
So your quote has no merit.
Will you still enjoy that Toyota when something fails, possibly killing you or a loved one, even hurting them? Or leaves you starnded on the side of a road in the 90+ degree weather we have been having?
You were so adamant about claiming the Ford tire issue as an issue. Why not the Toyota FJ Cruiser recall? Whats the difference? I doubt you can provide a difference.
Where is your green argument when GM builds the worlds ONLY[url][url] LEED certified plant? Right here in Michigan. Not in Japan. Here.. Toyota does nothing for the environment. Yet you claim you have not been had and continue to wave a big green flag in peoples faces.
I feel sorry for you.
Selling out of a vehicle has everything to do with it. Maybe you don't understand how it works. Which is blatently obvious provided the information you have tried to show.
Only 1 company has sold out of more than 2 vehicles in a fiscal year. It's not Toyota, not DCX. It's GM. That is a major milestone for a company that is supposedly "slipping."
I thought the Prius was hard to find?
Article quote:
In recent months, some dealers have also started offering discounts on hybrid models, in part because sales of some hybrids have slowed.
The discounts often come as higher trade-in values offered to people buying hybrids. Honda dealers averaged Accord-hybrid deals of $1,400 in June, according to CNW Marketing Research. Among other hybrids being discounted by dealers are Mercury Mariners, with deals averaging $1,900; and Toyota models, with nearly $1,100 off.
Last year at this time, dealer discounts on hybrids were virtually unheard of.
You are trying to evolve the argument to something that suits you, but that's cool. I'll take your post point by point.
"Will you still enjoy that Toyota when something fails, possibly killing you or a loved one, even hurting them? Or leaves you starnded on the side of a road in the 90+ degree weather we have been having?"
I've had four Toyotas. None of them have failed yet. Not a single repair outside of normal maintenance.
"You were so adamant about claiming the Ford tire issue as an issue. Why not the Toyota FJ Cruiser recall? Whats the difference? I doubt you can provide a difference."
Tire issue? What tire issue? I said "fire," not "tire." Even then, that's 9,400 Toyota vehicles vs. 3.8 million Fords. As of yesterday, it's now 6.7 million Fords.
"Where is your green argument when GM builds the worlds ONLY LEED certified plant? Right here in Michigan."
Wow, out of how many plants? Get a little perspective. That's hardly a trend. Toyota's sales center in California is LEED certified. So what?
"Selling out of a vehicle has everything to do with it. Maybe you don't understand how it works. Which is blatently obvious provided the information you have tried to show."
Yes, a 19.5% decline in overall sales vs. a 16% increase in overall sales is total voodoo to me. I don't know what I could possibly be thinking. Implying that I'm stupid isn't any better than calling me stupid.
"Only 1 company has sold out of more than 2 vehicles in a fiscal year. It's not Toyota, not DCX. It's GM. That is a major milestone for a company that is supposedly 'slipping.'"
What good is selling out of anything if your sales are on the decline? Sounds to me more like a supply chain and manufacturing issue when you can't meet demand.
"...and Toyota models, with nearly $1,100 off."
The article is wrong. Please point me to the Toyota dealership that has a new Prius in stock, and is discounting the price. I'll buy it.
Even if it was true, so what? I can buy nearly any other "normal" car for about invoice. When supply meets demand, I'm sure that will be the case for hybrids, or any other alt-fuel car technology. Every market heads toward that condition as commoditization occurs (and make no mistake, cars have become commodity goods).
I've had four Toyotas. None of them have failed yet. Not a single repair outside of normal maintenance.
I have had at least 9 domestic vehicles. No problems ever. Not one.
Even then, that's 9,400 Toyota vehicles vs. 3.8 million Fords. As of yesterday, it's now 6.7 million Fords.
Wrong:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060731/AUTO01/607310359/1148
"This past month alone, the Japanese automaker has recalled more than 1 million vehicles worldwide. Problems range from trim parts that can come loose and fall near the gas pedal of Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX sport utility vehicles to faulty engine parts in Echo compacts. "
1,000,000 is quite different than the figure you made up... oooops, I mean provided. That is not even all of the recalls.
Wow, out of how many plants? Get a little perspective. That's hardly a trend. Toyota's sales center in California is LEED certified. So what?
54 plants. Toyota still does not have a single plant that is LEED certified. A sales office that is not LEED certified puts out how much pollution? Again, this shows Toyota making the bare minimum requirement.
Yes, a 19.5% decline in overall sales vs. a 16% increase in overall sales is total voodoo to me. I don't know what I could possibly be thinking. Implying that I'm stupid isn't any better than calling me stupid.
Again, Sales are going up and still twice as many as Toyota has sold. What part of that don't you understand Stupid?
What good is selling out of anything if your sales are on the decline? Sounds to me more like a supply chain and manufacturing issue when you can't meet demand.
And the supply is greater than expected, which is a very good thing. Selling out of vehicles is an amazing thing to do in today's auto industry. Especially 4 different vehicles and soon to be a fifth.
The article is wrong. Please point me to the Toyota dealership that has a new Prius in stock, and is discounting the price. I'll buy it.
Serra Toyota/Scion
Come on up and purchase one. They are currently offering great deals and rebates on the Prius and Camry Hybrid. I called and they would love to have you. I'll even extend a warm welcome to you and you can crash on my couch to avoid having to drive back to Ohio.
"1,000,000 is quite different than the figure you made up... oooops, I mean provided. That is not even all of the recalls."
And 1 million is still a lot fewer than 6.7. And that million isn't catching fire. And I didn't make up the number regarding the FJ Cruiser, it's right here.
"54 plants. Toyota still does not have a single plant that is LEED certified. A sales office that is not LEED certified puts out how much pollution? Again, this shows Toyota making the bare minimum requirement."
Are you suggesting that because 1.9% of GM plants are "green" that they're heroes of the environmental movement, and Toyota is the environmental anti-Christ? How many vehicles is GM selling outside of the US with gas mileage over 30 mpg? I'm not talking about the number of models, I'm talking actual sales. The US is not the center of the universe. Oh, and GM, like everyone else including Toyota, has been lobbying state and federal governments to not raise CAFE standards.
"Again, Sales are going up and still twice as many as Toyota has sold. What part of that don't you understand Stupid?"
What grammar is that? What sales are going up? GM's? They just said sales were down 19.5%!
"And the supply is greater than expected, which is a very good thing. Selling out of vehicles is an amazing thing to do in today's auto industry. Especially 4 different vehicles and soon to be a fifth."
Wall Street doesn't reward you for selling out your product, they reward you for profit and increases in sales.
Serra Toyota has two Prius and one Camry hybrid, and they aren't discounting. Because a dealership in the middle of the most economically depressed area of the country has a few in stock (especially when the wait list is still three months long most everywhere else) does not constitute a surplus or slow sales. Again, get some perspective.
"And 1 million is still a lot fewer than 6.7. And that million isn't catching fire. And I didn't make up the number regarding the FJ Cruiser, ."
How long did it take Ford to reach that number? Now compare that to how long it took Toyota to exceed One Million Recalls. Less than 30 days. Pretty amazing....
"Are you suggesting that because 1.9% of GM plants are "green" that they're heroes of the environmental movement, and Toyota is the environmental anti-Christ? How many vehicles is GM selling outside of the US with gas mileage over 30 mpg? I'm not talking about the number of models, I'm talking actual sales. The US is not the center of the universe. Oh, and GM, like everyone else including Toyota, has been lobbying state and federal governments to not raise CAFE standards."
No, but that is still better than Toyota which you hail as the true heroes. The over 30 crowd actually exceeds U.S. numbers. Due mostly to the fact they offer diesels in China where they are also the number one Automaker. I understand what GM is doing. But Toyota denied it at first. GM admitted it to the public via their website and blog GMblogs.com
"What grammar is that? What sales are going up? GM's? They just said sales were down 19.5%!"
GM sales have leveled out for the month of July and GM said in the article I provided that they will begin growing in the month of August. Will just have to wait and see. Again, I will state again that GM at the half has still sold twice as many vehicles as Toyota.
"Wall Street doesn't reward you for selling out your product, they reward you for profit and increases in sales."
Maybe thats why GM stock has gone up considerably in the last 2 months.
"
has two Prius and one Camry hybrid, and they aren't discounting. Because a dealership in the middle of the most economically depressed area of the country has a few in stock (especially when the wait list is still three months long most everywhere else) does not constitute a surplus or slow sales. Again, get some perspective."
I called, let me guess you used the internet to check stock which is generally 3 weeks behind at most dealerships as the sites are updated once a month. When I called I was told about the $1,000.00 Rebate for the Prius that could be used as cash down on a car I could pick-up tomorrow. I was also offered $500 for a Camry Hybrid.
Oh and Farmington is not effected by Detroits economy as much as you would like to think.
Toyota Strikes Again...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=anY3lVr30M4I&refer=japan
Another 219,000 vehicles went under investigation are probably going to be recalled. This is yesterday.
You should keep comparing them to Ford when you have a debate about recalls. Because they are starting to slip with Ford.
I already told you GM would have more Hybrids than Toyota by the end of next year.
The Hybrid Saturn Vue will be out next month.
Just because GM is investing in them, does not mean I like Hybrids.